Enhancing Empty Nest Communication with Raffi Bilek – E116

Clancy Denton (00:00)
Today on the Loud Quiet, Enhancing Emptiness Communication with Raffi Billich.

Rick Denton (00:05)
Hey everyone, welcome back to The Loud Quiet. For those of you watching, you may notice a little something different about my head and I want to stop down and just encourage everyone to go get their skin cancer screening because what you see on the top of my head is a removal of a precancerous cell space that was discovered because I went and got my first cancer screen in about a decade. What's great about it is that word pre.

They caught it before it got serious. So especially for those of y'all that are here in the empty nest, a lot of us are getting a few years under our belt and it's time to do that. So if you haven't scheduled it, hit pause, find the dermatologist in your area, schedule the appointment and treat it like a dentist appointment that you have it on a recurring basis going forward. Because I don't think it's too dramatic to say that this screening could have saved my life because this will turn to melanoma if it wasn't removed.

There is your PSA for today, loud quiet listeners. So let's get to the actual topic that we are going to be talking about today. Never go to bed angry. Conflict is something that should be avoided in relationships. All the things we've heard before, but do they actually help relationships?

Clancy Denton (01:23)
Yes, our guest today, Rafi Billik, is a marriage counselor and author of the Couples Communication Handbook, The Skills You Never Learned for the Marriage You've Always Wanted. Rafi has helped hundreds of couples across the globe improve their communication, boost their connection, recover from hurts and betrayals, and in many cases, save their marriages. Besides being a couples counselor, husband, and father to four girls, Rafi is a computer programmer, a former swing dancer,

an Orthodox Jewish rabbi and a nationally ranked Scrabble player. Rafi, welcome to the Loud Quiet.

Raffi Bilek (02:01)
guys should we talk about Scrabble? can start there that'll be a fun place to start.

Clancy Denton (02:04)
Sorry.

Rick Denton (02:05)
Well, you know what? Actually, Robby, we were planning to ask you about Scrabble.

Raffi Bilek (02:10)
just, I competed in a competition. I did pretty well. I went the first set like undefeated. And this was a while ago. I was like the young guy in the room. So was a bit embarrassing for people. I have not competed a lot since. I just, I like Scrabble a lot. And I like playing word games and I put it on there because it draws the attention. But it's not my main thing. I spent a lot more time doing marriage counseling than playing Scrabble.

Rick Denton (02:34)
Well, I think about board games that Clancy and I have played and with the family and there's a lot of elements of communication and learning how to resolve conflict in a healthy way. So I can imagine that the board gaming of Scrabble and others has helped you in your practice. Let's talk about that. We're in the emptiness phase. Our listeners are in the emptiness phase and a lot of that.

element of success in the emptiness phase comes from how the relationship was even before they entered into that phase. So what would you say to a couple? Well, if they've already drifted away even before they got into the empty nest, how can they get started in reconnecting? They want to, but what should they be doing to build that reconnection?

Raffi Bilek (03:20)
You know, is totally normal that people spend years and decades working on raising the kids together, building a family, building a career, and then all of a sudden one day you find yourself, the kids are gone, the career seems to be going on its own, or maybe you're retiring already, and it's just you and your spouse and a lot of quiet. And trying to get back to that place, right, the loud and quiet, trying to get back to that place.

of, we're not just sort of partners in this business of life. We're friends, we're lovers, we're partners. ⁓ It could take some effort if that has been over- overtaken by some of the business of life. ⁓ And you said, where to start? I mean, I think a conversation. Just sitting down and talking about, hey, here's where we are and here's where we want to be. And for people who don't have the skills or the courage or the ability to re-engage like that,

reach out to a counselor who can help you re-engage. I've definitely seen a lot of folks in their senior years still trying to make it work better than it has in the past. And that's great thing. That's what people like me are here for, to help you guys reconnect.

Clancy Denton (04:31)
Well, you know, being empty nesters, our kids have been gone now, our youngest one for about three years. But we find that there's still conflict that creeps in involving them between us, you know, things they're dealing with, and then it creates conflict between us. What can we do about that? How can we not make that a big issue? Or is that something that

is just going to be there for the end of time.

Raffi Bilek (05:05)
Yeah, no solution, sorry.

Rick Denton (05:07)
Thanks

for being on. Good time with you, Robbie. Have a good one.

Raffi Bilek (05:12)
You know, it's funny, people think that like, once the kids are older and out of the house, you know, it'll be good. We'll be able to, you know, it'll be all golden years. We'll go on trips and things like actually you still have trouble with your kids. It's just a different flavor.

Yeah, and I think the name of the game is the same thing. People often try to run in and solve this problem on the fly. Like, gosh, Billy's calling us. either Billy with his homework or now with you guys is like Billy with his mortgage. Whatever might be going on. And you want to run in solve the problem. But there's so many things that go on between you guys and within you about this issue.

You know, if Billy's having trouble making his mortgage payments, maybe you feel stressed because Billy's always been kind of irresponsible, or you are shocked because he's always been very responsible. You are embarrassed by this problem. ⁓ You are angry at your spouse for having told him one time that maybe if he needs, you'll always... Whatever it is, there's so many pieces that go into it.

I tell everybody, before we get into solving any problem that comes up, whether it's about the kids or the marriage or the whatever it is, we have to first have a conversation exploring the problem before we try to solve the problem. Because you can't solve a problem that you don't understand. And yet, we all try to do that. Right? hey, oh, it's simple. It's never simple. Right? There's so many emotions and aspects that go into your relationship with each other and with the kids. So we stop and we have a conversation. Look, we are not going to solve this problem right now.

Billy is having trouble with the mortgage, but let's talk, you and me, what's going on for us here. And we explore, well, I'm embarrassed, you're angry, I'm stressed and worried. You're not stressed and worried, you think it's all gonna be okay. Fine, let's understand what the problem is and where we stand, and then from there, solving the problem will be a lot easier. But when you run in to solve the problem, you cut off all that discussion about what's really bothering you, what's really going on inside. And so I think for whatever discussions people have to have,

It's two separate conversations. One is where we explore it and one is where we resolve it.

Clancy Denton (07:19)
love all of that. I know for us as the mom, I still want to be the let's help them as much as we can. And and he does too, but to some degree it's he'll they'll figure it out. They'll figure it out. How can we relay that to the kids? How do we set those boundaries with them?

Raffi Bilek (07:43)
Well,

You guys may not agree on what needs to happen. Maybe you want to give them little extra cash to cover the mortgage and you don't. Or again, whatever the example is. ⁓ So far I've only talked about what we do to get to this place of discussing the problem. You may never agree on what to do. I'm sure there are plenty of things in your marriage that you don't agree on even if you've been married for however many decades it's been. ⁓ So the goal here is not necessarily to reach an agreement because some things you will not agree on.

But if we're okay, look, you are nervous about the situation and I am not. You can have your feelings, I can have my feelings. You understand me, I understand you. Now we're on the same page. We're on the same team working on this situation without having to coerce the other person and without running in with a solution that may or may not stick. So many people have had arguments, the same ones over and over again, and they try to solve it and it doesn't stick. Why? Because you haven't really addressed the problem.

Right? What to do with Billy and his mortgage, that's a fairly practical issue. But the fact is, you know, you never listen to me, you always help the kids without talking to me first. ⁓ You know, you're going to ruin them by spoiling them. We don't have enough money for ourselves. All these other worries underneath that might come up. If we haven't dealt with that, like that conflict is still there. So whether you do or you don't give the money to Billy, you guys are still in tension with each other.

And what I'm trying to help people do is regardless of what the problem is and whether it has a good solution, you guys can be on the same team and still feel good with each other.

Rick Denton (09:16)
I want to come back to that because there's there's an element of the if a conflict just has that sort of immovable solution element to it because to get to that same team I want to get to that before that though there's a little part of me that well I don't really like conflict there's a part of me that can be a very people-pleaser at times I don't like conflict and there's this sort of image that conflict is something that's negative in a marriage

But you've said that the absence of conflict doesn't actually mean that there's great communication. It doesn't mean that it's a great relationship. Are you saying, conflict is something we should have? Where do you stand on conflict in a relationship?

Raffi Bilek (09:57)
You understand conflict, right?

Every relationship has conflict. Every marriage, every friendship, every family, everything. It's just not possible for two people to see everything the same way all the time. That's just not how reality works. So if you would like to go out for Mexican and you want to go out for Chinese, that's a conflict. That's a difference of opinions. That's a small one probably. But there are so many ways, big and small, in which you guys don't agree and any two partners will bump up against each other.

So you could avoid that, stuff your feelings, not deal with it, and watch it pop back out later in a horrible, angry way. Or you stop and say, you know what, when you booked the Chinese restaurant without asking me, I really felt a little bit overlooked. Right? So it's uncomfortable to talk about the vulnerable feelings and having a good plan for communication and a good set of skills, which is what I help people achieve.

allows us to have those conversations in a way that again leaves us feeling connected. I might be angry at you for something you've done, but we can still be connected. Conflict, anger is not against the relationship. Anger is a normal part of a relationship. If you turn to punching and screaming and yelling, yeah, that's a problem on the relationship. But the fact that I'm angry at you, I could love my wife dearly and I do. But if she forgot to pick up my dry cleaning like I asked her, I might be mad.

That doesn't mean I'm gonna go throwing things and blowing up, but I can say, I'm really mad that you forgot this, and that can be okay. And the fact that we have a relationship in which I can say, I am mad at you, and she can hear that, and we are still connected, that is good stuff. That is a solid relationship.

Rick Denton (11:44)
It's well, okay. I agree. It seems like there's a lot of foundational work though, to get to that point because there, there certainly are times that I'm frustrated with Clancy, but I don't always feel comfortable saying, Hey, I'm angry about this situation. What are the kind of foundations to get to that point where you feel okay. Expressing that ⁓ negative or conflict oriented emotion.

Raffi Bilek (12:14)
I would say two things. Number one, if there is something in you that feels uncomfortable being angry, ⁓ that you feel like it's the wrong thing, meaning I'm a bad person, or you worry that it's going to blow things up just because I'm angry, we should probably check into that. know, some people have these templates from their childhood that, you know, if I was ever upset, my parents would, you know, spank me and whatever. Like, I was not allowed to be angry. So that can leave a mark, you know, psychologically. ⁓ But let's say,

that we understand, yes, it's normal for people to be angry. I just, I don't want to express it to you. I'm worried how that's going to go. I don't think we can. I think just learning how to have a good conversation with the skills that you can pick up, you know, online in a book. My book happens to be the best one, but you can pick up on many of them. How do you...

How do you have a conversation? What's gonna happen next? If you say, I'm angry, most people, if I come and I say to you, I'm angry with you, I get a response like, well, that's because you did this and this, or I didn't mean that, I meant, and there's all kinds of unhelpful responses that people give. But if we learn how to have a conversation, and I can be confident that if I say, I am angry with you because you forgot to pick up the dry cleaning, that I'm gonna get a loving,

connecting response, even if we disagree, and even if we're angry at each other, then we can step into that in a much more functional way. So getting a sense of what goes into such a conversation and how to do it is really helpful.

I mean, it would be nice to think that everybody comes from a background of having a good solid relationship or a foundation to build off of, but many of the couples I work with don't. They come in, they've got horrible communication, they're in a big fight about this, that, or the other, and what do we do? I say, okay, one step at a time. Let's walk through the process of a good conversation together, right? We're not solving the problem, we're just gonna explore the problem right now, and all the other things we put into place to make it work, and they can do it.

Clancy Denton (14:07)
Thinking about, I'm thinking about like our generation, know, feelings were not a big thing that we talked about or were expressed, but then our children, know, things started gearing towards more of them being able to express their emotions. Have you seen a change like between our age group and like...

you know, our children or even your daughter's age, you know, that they are better communicators because they understand those feelings.

Raffi Bilek (14:42)
is better communicators, there has been definitely a huge generational shift, right? I don't know exactly where it cuts off, but everyone my age and older, and I'm 43 now, we all remember that our parents yelled at us, at least Bang does, and ⁓ that was just life. And there wasn't a sense of like working on feelings and assertive communication, like you said. And now there is. And I think there's a lot of positive value, of course,

Some people go too far and there's a lack of boundaries and discipline. I cannot tell you how many people of a generation above me I've worked with, they come and they say, I don't understand my kids. They don't have a parent, there's no boundaries, there's no discipline. Well, there is, it looks a little different. ⁓ I think overall it's a good thing that people have a sense of, I have feelings and I can talk about them and that's where the goodies are. If we want people to have the ability as they grow up,

to deal with the issues in their lives, being able to notice what is actually the issue. Again, the issue is not that you took the cookie from the jar, and the issue is not that my son cannot pay the mortgage. The issue is, I don't like being bossed around, or I'm embarrassed about my family's financial state, or whatever it is. There's things underlying it.

the better we as individuals and as a society get at ⁓ picking into that and noticing what's going on there, the easier it'll be to actually come up with solutions big and small.

Clancy Denton (16:13)
Yeah, well that's, you know, another emotion, anger. And I remember in our, you know, I think we had a book at one of our showers or at our, maybe even at our wedding where people put their advice and yeah, the number one thing was don't go to bed angry. So I know you say the opposite of that. us.

Raffi Bilek (16:35)
Well,

so many people have gotten stuck with this advice from grandma and so they think it's it's critical They solve every problem right away. And so, you know some big fight happens, you know 1148 p.m. Well, we got to deal with this. So what happens they're both angry. They're exhausted. They spend three hours arguing They're more exhausted. Nothing has been solved and the next day is a wreck

You know, it's just not the way it works. People do not flip in an instant or even in one three hour conversation. One time I had one couple say to me, yeah, after a three hour conversation of yelling and screaming, we got to a better place. Like, yeah, but couldn't we do it without the three hour argument? You know what? It is uncomfortable to go to bed and you're facing the other direction and everyone knows you're angry at each other. It's awkward.

But it's better than the alternative, which is a big giant fight and arguing and people calling each other names and saying things they wish they hadn't said. It's okay. Your marriage will survive going to bed angry. Marriages tend not to survive the nasty name calling. So it really is okay. You say, you know what? I can't do this well now. That's my first piece of advice to everybody. It's the first chapter in the book. Don't talk about it now, because you can't.

When you're angry about something is the worst time to try to deal with it. You need to come down a little bit. You need to bring the temperature down and get that those frontal lobes operational again because when something goes wrong, you're shut down, you're in fight or flight, and you're just throwing all these things at the wall. just like, it doesn't work out well. It is okay to walk away and say, hey, I'm angry, but I cannot talk about it right now. Again, anger is not against the relationship. Anger is a part of the relationship and how you handle it depends how the relationship will go. So if I say, you know what?

I'm really angry but I can't talk right now. Fine, so the evening will be awkward, but it's better than the al-threative.

Rick Denton (18:26)
Yeah, that it's still hard even hearing that and even knowing that we've gone to angry and that sort of thing. just, it's hard to accept that because it has been put into our heads so often. The it's not the right time now element of that makes sense logically. What about when it's, it doesn't seem to ever be the right time? How, how can a couple get past that point of where it seems like the issue is

immovable or impossible to solve or they're just at that point that you can't seem to get to an agreement.

Raffi Bilek (19:05)
The goal can't be agreement because we may not agree.

right some people may have married somebody who believes it was on the opposite end of the spectrum from them when it comes to abortion gun control immigration whatever it might be you may never convince the other person i'm just picking up the you know the the hot ticket issues uh... but it also comes up with you know uh... that argument we had yesterday where you said that and i respond no no no you said that no no you said at first and then i said and so many people have this issue like

we have to set the record straight. And I get the compelling nature of that because I feel it myself, but it doesn't help you. Trying to agree on what happened yesterday, we may never agree. I tell my couples, you guys are going to go to your grave believing that you were the one who said this, that, the other, and they didn't. But we're never going to resolve that. We're just going to talk about what the impact on you was, and then we'll be on the same page again. We'll be on the same team working together, and we'll never agree.

and that's okay so pushing for that agreement and saying no we have to solve this issue now because you think that sign felt was funnier and i think that friends was funny we got a lot of right now but that issue is not an emergency and if we disagree on that for a little while longer or forever we can still be okay so long as i understand what it means to you and you understand what it means to me

Clancy Denton (20:34)
You hit two of our favorite shows.

Rick Denton (20:36)
So we at least agree on those two.

They're tied for funny for us. You said something interesting in there and that was it's not about remembering exactly what happened, but what the impact was. Can that impact be misremembered? Or can it be misunderstood between the two parties?

Raffi Bilek (20:49)
Right.

I

I get mad because you walked in and you slammed the door and I really don't appreciate when you walk around spraying your anger everywhere, blah blah blah. So you're thinking, I just had a bad day at work and I was in a rush to get to the next meeting, etc. etc. So we could argue about that and I say, no you were angry, you say, no I was just rushing. Great, now we're in an argument and we haven't gotten anywhere.

And maybe one of us will capitulate and say, fine, you're right. that nobody's happy with that.

But if you were to say, know what, again, we pick a calm moment, not before the meeting. But let's go that night. And I say to you, you know what, Rick, when you ran in and slammed the door, like, it just drives me crazy that you just, you you sort of spray your anger everywhere and everyone has to hear how bad a mood you're in. And it just makes me uncomfortable. So now you can try to explain to me why that's not what happened and that's not what you meant, et cetera, et cetera. And everyone listening knows that doesn't get you anywhere. We've all tried that. If I just explained to her why I'm mad.

that I'm not mad, then she'll understand. So I'll explain to what I meant, then she'll be okay. Has that ever worked? Everyone listening can say, no, that work. It seems logical, but it doesn't. But instead, if you would say, know what, Rafi, I can understand why my slamming the door has that impact on you. And I'm really sorry that it makes you uncomfortable. So you haven't agreed with me. You're just validating how I feel. You say that really stinks. You feel that way. And then you might say, you know what, can I sort of explain to you where I was coming from? And I'll say, once I've been heard,

Then I'll say, yeah, tell me what it's like for you. And you'll say, well, I was in such a rush and I was really stressed out. And I wasn't angry at all. And didn't mean to slam the door. I was really worried about getting to the next meeting and how stressful it is for me at work. And I feel bad that it has that impact on you. just, oh gosh, I'm a little bit overloaded with work these days. And I go, oh, so you're not mad when you run in the door. You're just rushed and stressed. I can see that. So.

Neither one of us has to agree that the other person is right. It really doesn't matter who's right. What matters is I care about your stress and you care about my discomfort and now we're in sync and we're having a good relationship and that's great.

Clancy Denton (23:09)
So when you're talking about different topics that might cause arguments, what as a marriage counselor, what do you find are the hot issues? You know, we always were told finances and sex, are those still the top of the charts or what what are you seeing?

Raffi Bilek (23:30)
get everything ⁓ because when people don't know how to communicate about the things going on in their lives, everything becomes a problem. The fact that you left the faucet on and the fact that ⁓ dinner wasn't ready and the fact that you came home late and the fact that you don't parent the way I like, everything could be an issue. But yes, there are some more difficult...

topics right like lawn care tends not to be You know, but finances and sex ⁓ and parenting these days a lot, you know parenting wasn't really a verb for my parents in my parents generation. Yeah, that's true. So that brings up a lot of arguments ⁓ Family difficulties, right? Well, we have the physical parent or sibling or something that there's a lot of stress around that

So yeah, the classics are still there, know, the oldies and goodies. ⁓ But really, when you're not in sync with your partner, as a lot of people know, like everything can become an argument and that's frustrating.

Rick Denton (24:26)
I know one that became more apparent to me as we entered the empty nest that wasn't there, and just because stage of life wasn't quite there yet, but when I had a mom who was in the throes of Alzheimer's, and all of the energy and focus that I was putting into that, and all of the conversation that Clancy and I were having centered around that, that there were times that

Clancy made us both aware of, there's other things in life. There's other, like we can't just focus on that thing no matter how intense and important it is. That sandwich generation focus of, focus on your parents and then focus on the kids became a new set of areas that we had to figure out how to manage well in our relationship.

Raffi Bilek (25:13)
People have sick parents, people have sick children and siblings, and the broader issue here is when people put their focus in the marriage or on something else, whether it is a family member or work.

or their golf club or whatever it's gotta be, yes there are other things in life, the question is where is the priority? And it's not so easy. I mean, I think that marriage needs to be a priority, but how do you put that over your mom and her health? It's a very difficult thing to balance. Likewise, you have to take care of your kids and you have to take of your marriage. And getting that balance right is difficult at every stage.

Clancy Denton (25:53)
Yeah. Yeah. And we, you know, being at the phase of life that we are in, we do have a lot of listeners that are retiring, about to retire. You know, we, I don't know if it was a great idea or not, we decided to go into business together after we became Empty Nesters. So how do you handle that transition going, you know, to seeing each other, you know, in the evenings or and being together on the weekends to now?

24-7, what tips on communication do you have for those people entering that phase of retiring or being together all the time?

Raffi Bilek (26:33)
Yeah. Take a lot of naps.

Rick Denton (26:36)
All right, duly noted.

Raffi Bilek (26:39)
It's hard. It's a transition. ⁓ Preparing for it. Again, I would, if a couple came to me and said, you know, we're going in that direction, what would you recommend? I'd say, let's start having some conversations about what it's going to be like. What are you worried about? What are you worried about? I'm concerned about being together all the time. It'll be hard. I'm nervous that you are not going to allow me to go play golf like I do it once a week. Whatever it's going to be like, let's talk about what's coming. And that in itself is something that brings us together. Like we are working on this together.

will be a change. There will be new terrain to navigate together if we can talk about these things as well. And when we try one thing and then we say, you know what, I think this really is a lot of time together. I love you and it's great, but like, I'm going a little bit crazy though. I miss my friends. I need some sense of purpose. Whatever it is, all the challenges that come along with retirement and the golden years and all that.

⁓ okay, let's talk about them. Let's keep the conversation going. There's no one solution for, okay, what's retirement going to be like? And guess what? When you come up with a solution, two years down the road, things may change. So let's keep the conversation going. Let's stay in touch with each other, communicate, talk about our feelings, our issues, our concerns. That will make it good.

Rick Denton (27:54)
Rafi, there's been so much that I like just in this that I've learned. Like we could take this away as a little mini coaching session and have conversations about it coming out of it. If you think about sort of your suite of wisdom that you've shared with folks and they want to communicate better, what is the tip that you share with people that helps them learn? This is how you can communicate better.

Raffi Bilek (28:21)
Okay, so there's not one thing to do for communication. There's a set of skills, which I go into in the book. We talked, we touched on some of them. The one thing that people need more than anything is take a break. Right? Don't do it in the moment. That's what we said. We went over that, but there's so many couples that really are quite articulate and can talk to each other, but they get ramped up.

and things don't go well. And for so many people, if they would just work on taking a break and coming back later, things would go a lot more smoothly and the communication would go better.

then there's some things that we need to do differently, right? Like instead of yelling at each other about slamming the door, it's my telling you how I feel when you slam the door and what that means to me and you responding in a helpful way. So that's, you know, after chapter one, which is time out, there's chapters two, three, four, five, six, whatever, many, how many chapters there are. And there's lots of good stuff in there. And so I totally encourage people to read that book or a different one, although this one's better.

You know, people can reach out to me. I work with couples all over the place, trying to help them get things shored up. And there are plenty of relationship coaches and counselors out there. I am the best one, but there's plenty of options out there. So by all means, people should get some help for themselves.

Clancy Denton (29:31)
All right, well, Rafi, tell our listeners where they can find you if they are interested in working with you and tell them where they can find your book.

Raffi Bilek (29:40)
Sure, the book is The Couple's Communication Handbook, The Skills You Never Learned The Marriage You Always Wanted. It is on Amazon. It is easy to find if you go to thecommunicationbook.com. That is my website and people can reach out to me there. There are videos there and some extra blog posts with extra ideas, an email list if you want these juicy bits of wisdom sent to you. And you can get the first two chapters for free. If I have not convinced you yet that I have good stuff to share, download the first two chapters, you can get the ebook. There's also an audiobook.

listening to me speak, there's seven hours and 29 minutes of that. The first two chapters free on the website. Check it out and if it seems like it'll be helpful, go for it. And if not, okay.

Clancy Denton (30:20)
I'm

Rick Denton (30:21)
That's awesome, Rafi. We will certainly get all of those links down in the show notes. So folks, you don't even have to hit pause, just scroll down, show notes, click the links, and you'll get to learn more about Rafi or get access to behind his book. Rafi, you've taken me on an interesting sort of path of learning here. I know that Clancy and I are walking away with some moments, and I guarantee the listeners and viewers have been with those same aha moments. That idea of take a break, that certainly that idea of it's okay to pause,

including overnight is such, it shouldn't be, but it is such an epiphany for many folks that came out of our generation and how our generation has become more aware of the emotional impact and the impact rather than necessarily getting to the details of what happened, but really focusing on the impact of it. Those were all phenomenal learnings and I'm so appreciative of what you've had to share with us today. Rafi.

Thank you for joining us on The Loud Quiet.

Raffi Bilek (31:22)
Thank you for having me, always a pleasure guys.